Wednesday, October 05, 2005

Preliminary hypotheses on music...

UPDATE:
Here is an amazingly insightful article on music theory, one of the best ever i have come across online. Something that every carnatic musician should know, which i doubt they do.
Hats off Srikanth.

(Sincere thanks to "N.Vijayanand")
The first part of this post is a verbatim reproduction of Vijayanand's thoughts on his blog, reproduced here for the lazy reader.
==========================
I always had this view that composing songs that were bad was a really hard task. Because of the simple fact that we "get used" to the song and start liking it after repeated listenings.

So what exactly do we mean when we say a partticular song/music is good.
It can only be governed by the following function H(t) : The 'happiness' (due to lack of a better word) we
derive from the song/music as a function of time. Four parameters for this function govern the quality of the song. The rate at which the function reaches its maximum value, the maximum value, the rate at which the function decays from the maximum value and finally "hysterisis",the rate of slow trace back(increase of happiness function) of the curve due to long periods of not listening to the song.

Let us look at the parameters individually:

1) Attack : (rate of increase): This , I guess, is dependant on the level of musical expertise of the person.
For example consider the song "Azhagana Ratchasiye.." -- If this song is heard by a person who is familiar with the raaga reetigowla, then the the attack will be higher for that person. The next obvious qustion is why? I think the answer has to deal with psychological reasons which I would reserve for a future post.

2) Decay (rate of decrease): After listening to a song repeatedly, we tend to lose interest in the song. Again I think the reasons for this are psychological. I think this phenomenon may be independent of the musical expertise of the person.

3) Maximum value: How good a song is should depend on the maximum value. But based on my personal experience it is very hard to distingush the maximum values of two good songs/music. (I get the same "kick" from all songs when I am enjoying it the greatest!)

4) Hysterisis: Suppose we hear a song continually for a week. By this time, the H value would have increased to its maximum value and would have started falling say to value 'l' (say) after a week. Then
if we we wait for a year and again hear the song. Now the H value will not be 'l' , but a much higher value beacuse of the trace back in the periods of non-listening.

Now let us explain the reasons for the following using our theory:

i) Common men enjoy film music more than classical music.
Based on two reasons:
a) Musical expertise of common man is low. So often the attack (rate at which H(t) increases) can be low.
b) Common man listens to (is forced to listen) to film songs in the initial stages, (even when the H for that songs has not risen).

ii) The old melodies dont die, the newer songs die a quick death:
This is a fallacy. Again explained using the frequencies of listening and hysterisis. (The old songs are heard at a mush lesser frequency compared to new songs).

iii) Carnatic music is of inherently higher quality than film music
I would have say no and yes to this.
I would say inherently there is no difference in the quality of music. (All the four parameters are probably not much better than film music)
But the reason for carnatic music's speciality is "manodharma" (the creative part, or the improvising part). By having this we have ensured we are not hearing the same (ditto) song/music again and again.
Each time we are hearing an improvisation. That is the reason ragas and krithis dont decay at all.

=====================
On top of that analysis, let me also say that there are 2 factors which influence the "happiness quotient" of a particular song.

a. Singability (simplicity to the ear)
b. Singalongability

Singability - the non-musician's perspective:
is a measure of how close to the original can a person reproduce the song or the effect it has on a listener. am talkin about non-musicians here, who value the singing component of a song generally much higher than the orchestration (save for a few explicit pieces of backing).

Say, for example, a song like Sa re ga me (of BOYS) fame, though an amazing song, has a low value for singability, simply because the orchestration is such an integral part of the song. Sans the orchestration, the song cannot be sung alone.

The "fallacy" that Vijayanand talks about old/new songs is accounted for here, again for the simple reason that a greater emphasis on orchestration and technical finesse in newer songs (from the point of view of "sounding" good - with nothing mentioned about the musicality here) sort of distinguishes old songs(i am not talking about the intensely classical "oru naall podhuma" or the "paattum naane" types) as some that you would easily relate to (being a non-musician).
These are the songs that have a large hummability value. At any random public function, or at a gathering, these are the songs, the singable ones, that one chooses to sing, because most of the essential flavor is retained.

Lets look at a few examples of GOOD songs with high and low singability:

Nilave ennidam nerungaadhe : Old with high singability
Konjum nilavu : New with low singability
Machaan peru madhura: New with High singability
Oru naall podhuma: Old number with low singability
Carnatic music: in general, low singability.

2. Singalongability (the musician's perspective):
Arbitly named, this is a measure of the same from a musician's perspective. When performing a song, the technical- and technological- factors in the song that render it easy or difficult to perform.
Say, a song like konjum nilavu (shown above to have low singability) has a high singalongability, and thus, a musician, with the 'band', would love to perform this song, and the viewers (non-musicians) would go crazy "singing along".

These songs would be sung infrequently on occasions, and this is no way erodes their "lifespan".
All singable songs i guess are also highly singalongable.
The converse is not always true.

GOOD Songs with low values of both might be best admired with the film... or heard over and over, but never "sung".
eg: Enakkoru Girlfriend venumadaa. Too much of technology in the song. Too many layers. Lots of vocal harmony. Even ARR can't perform it live on stage without resorting to a CD playing a (-1) track.

I know i should put some more thought into this and streamlined them, to actually speak some proper sense, but i never seem to have the patience these days..
Improvements, corrollaries, flaws... please do voice it out.
This could be interesting.
Just my 2 paise.

Written & Directed by,
Girish.

43 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good stuff, good stuff!
Has set me thinking...

8:56 AM  
Blogger Vijay said...

Yes, I agree 'singability' is an important parameter.

1:34 PM  
Blogger Vasanth said...

propably a non musical singers view would be suiting the best on the definition of singability... for a musician even songs like konjum nilavu becomes singable... eg; anupama... who sang the song did sing only this song appart from few unnoticed numbers.... and konjum nilavu was sung by her in almost all interviews and hence the song is singable.... ;-)

2:39 PM  
Blogger Hope said...

hey girish, how have u been doing lately? this was a really good blog. vijayanand's blog was really an entertaining read as well as portraying the essence that is his---thot-provoking...i remember in the 11th std. in psbb ( i was in the same class as he was-11F1)..we all (the entire 11th class)went to see the movie "titanic" and vijayanand asks dr. the next day to explain how the ship broke in two and how the angle exactly formed before it did break...samma confused aa irundhen naan appo abt something, and i didnt even listen to the entire discussion properly...but i remember that one...lol. and this article (both vijay's and girish's) i love! :)keep it rolling, guys!!!

3:49 PM  
Blogger Hope said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:50 PM  
Blogger Hope said...

nice insight into music, But....

Technical Correction... A R Rahman would be able to Re-Produce the "Ennakkoru Girlfriend" song live easily since all 11 tracks of re-recording for this song was done on a 'Korg Triton Workstation'....this is a piece of valid info from one of my annaas...do look into it.

7:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Girish,

A layman in music that I am, I may not be qualified enough to comment on the opinions of gurus like you,vijayanand and srikanth. Nevertheless, I'd beg to differ on one point which you had listed. Feel that the 'singability' and 'singalongability' are too closely related to distinguish them as 2 distinct parameters.
Anyway, good to hear something about vijayanand.I still remember Vijayanand playing that 'Azhagana Raatchasiye' song and trying to explain me some finer aspects, most of which were way above my head !! :-) But Vijay,I have improved a lot now when it comes to appreciating good music and I am sure I'll understand your thoughts much better than I used to.Btw,are you coming home this time ??

10:58 PM  
Blogger Girish said...

Bang on Sekar.
They ARE kinda closely related, and i have to think up a better way to explain myself.. But i thot the konjum nilavu example kinda gave some insight..

LOL Aarthi. The titanic anecdote was ROFL...
And i repeat. There is NO WAY in the WHOLE WIDE WORLD that he could have done Girlfriend on a Korg Triton Alone.
I wud bet my iima t-shirt on it :P

1:27 AM  
Blogger Jay said...

One more parameter if i may add is
"Anti Gravitational Pull" of the song...the ability of the song to lift a person's spirits/take him to a different plane of emotion.....
or for that matter the innate flavor in the song that takes the person into the mood the song wishes to convey.....

For eg....Yaar yaar sivam...elevates the soul to another level...seldom reached by mortals
Or for that matter...Summer of 69..

To cite an example of a song that lift u to a world of depression..."lift" here is used to denote the transportation of the soul to a world dull and gloomy...
enge sellum indha paadhai...
to take us to a world of eternal love...azhage sugama...etc....

ofcourse....appropriateness in orchestration, the voice of singers and the inherent mood of the raaga have parts to play in this parameter's existence and value in a song....
The presence of silence or minimal instruments also contributes to the AGP of a song....

These 2 paise were
Written and Directed by
J

8:19 AM  
Blogger Vasanth said...

J... ne thala da.... natchunu examples sonna... shoore..

G this word verification savadikkaradhu.... 2 nd time i have to do this to post ...

4:44 PM  
Blogger Girish said...

Word verification is semma important. Visit srican.blogspot.com for details :)
no complaints shall be entertained.

2:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oye!! This thread must not suffer such a quick "death"...I, for 1, expected a lot of discussion over this very intresting blogging subject...disappointing...wonder what ppl are doing!!!
Factly/frankly - ellam vetti scene & a poor poor management of time.

(I dare not reveal my identity)

12:39 AM  
Blogger Girish said...

Very Good point J, and yeah anon.

But j's point is not about music. His point, in a way, is music.

which is to state, in another way, that u cant engineer music. You can only make a good song.
You CANNOT make a divine song.
That is a question of perception, and highly specific to the listener.
'Rising with the song' is an example of an effect that creates itself. Many a time, this is why composers feel that some of their favorite compositions of theirs have not been recognised and that they have been accorded more praise than they expected for some songs..
My 2 paise...

1:30 AM  
Blogger Girish said...

LOL oops.
Apologies for the typo:

"His point, in a way, is music." should have read
"His point, in a way, is ABOVE music".

though it sounded good. Cha.

1:33 AM  
Blogger Vijay said...

J.Harish,
Actually I did spend time thinking about this topic: whether this property , the divinity (which you call AGP) is an inherent property of the song. But after much thought I decided (like girish aptly observes) it has to do with the mood of the listener. This is the reason I think the max value parameter is approximately the same for all songs.

Again you rightly mention the 'mood of the raga'. This in itself is a HUGE topic. (which again reminds me of the futility of the whole excercise - abstracting something as complex as music with a simple model - but that dosent prevent us from trying)

9:27 AM  
Blogger Jay said...

A perceptive listener who opens his ears to all kinds of music and gets into the "Feel" or "Bhaavam" in the song....Should be able to enjoy all the types of songs or rise with the AGP of the song...I feel that it doesn't really depend all the time on the person. For instance, a song like "Kurai onrum illai" reaches out to those not well versed in music as well in terms of the bhakti it generates.
While on the other hand...a "sonnaalum ketpathillai" might not necessarily appeal emotionally to the musically lesser aware.
Point is, some songs do rise...independent of the mood or the taste of the listener.....
As vijay rightly pointed out...to attempt to put something as free flowin as music into a framework might border on a futile exercise..but still....we all like it.....so why not...

1:48 AM  
Blogger Vijay said...

Harish,
This may sound blasphemous but I claim
the reason we think 'Kurai Ondrum Illai' is divine is not due to music but due to 'knowledge'; knowledge that MS is a 'divine singer'; that the composer is rajaji; that the lyrics of the song are filled with divinity; In other words we are 'brainwashed' by the society into thinking this song is divine and so we find it divine.

Just put yourselves into the shoes of a person who dosent know about MS and think about the song.Infact I just asked an american (who knows to play the saxaphone and has some musical expertise) what he thought about the song. His comments were not great after two listenings.

(In fact I am going to make him listen for a week daily once and see if his opinion changes).

11:44 AM  
Blogger Jay said...

Interesting....Now what about some of the Islamic songs like "Zikr" or "Piya Haji Ali"...I get a high listening to them.. I get a lotta bhakti and peace of mind.. i donno urdu or arabic...nor do i know the meaning...but still the divinity is overflowin acc to me in those songs..Isn't it inherent in the music, orchestration and singing?
Now this is anologous to an american listenin to Kurai Ondrum Illai...isnt it?

1:40 PM  
Blogger Girish said...

Not really again J.
At least I have never cared for any islamic song other than the ones by Rahman. which again corroborates n.vijayanand's point.

catch my Point?

3:17 PM  
Blogger Jay said...

No....Its not rahman but islam that holds the magic

10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i m not following the thread at all b cos it s all too much to understand for me - going well over the head...BUT, just a small point - J commenting that he s taken a liking for Islam is all "hogging the media attention" dialogue, not 1 bit more...what he knows about what pleasure there is to be derived from a religion/its hymns...summma vetti paechu - not a halala worth...
N. Vijayanand - knowing the "context" of the song is important - for the "value" of Kurai ondrum illai..., I think the lyrics too hold that much importance...
Harivaraasanam kelunga paa - shu shu...

2:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i m happy to the extent that (at last) Sab has the nenjula manjaa to admit that he liked all those Islamic songs (read crap) only b cos they were ARR stuffs - i ve never endorsed these guys' point on a couple of recent "nationalistic" songs (all ARR, mind u) and their oo's and aa's...1 hair endure aagaathu daas...bear it in mind...thattanum da thattanum...ezuppanum paattu naa...kanla thanni varnum illa thulli gudhikkanum...thaa athu music...

Grow guys grow...

ciao,

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam.

"Live for yourself not for the world."

2:34 AM  
Blogger Girish said...

Sorry BK.
In your criticism, you went overboard too. I was thinkin, "ok here is bk, pouncing on the chance" when i saw ur comments on my candid admission (which was incidentally that i hav not heard {or made any efforts to listen to} any islamic songs other than rahman's). But then found it konjam needlessly aggressive too. neeyum valarla BK.

By that i simply meant to support vijayanand's point that we probably know more about a particular song than the contents of the song itself wen we enjoy the song differently..
for eg. a song which i wud not otherwise care two hoots about, i might listen to again, given the info that it was an ilayaraja composition. adhu maadhiri.

i trash J saying that he likes islam and all that, ONLY FROM MY STAND that all those rahman islam songs have truly given me goosebumps, and rahman had a big part to play.

"thattanum da thattanum...ezuppanum paattu naa...kanla thanni varnum illa thulli gudhikkanum...thaa athu music..."
idhu ELLAAME THE ABOVEMENTIONED ISLAMIC SONGS PANNIRUKKU.
VAAYA MOODU BK.

and all the "nationalistic" songs, kekkara ovvoru vaattiyum enakku goosebumps vandhirukku. wen we saw bose in the theatre, i defly had moist eyes wen aazaadi came on screen.

THA.
ADHU MUSIC.

(ENGIYO izhuthundu poyita nee enna. but worth it i guess. periya mayiraatam pesinaa?)

9:05 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Word verification is semma important. Visit srican.blogspot.com for details :)

Hullo?! Those who do not recognise its semma importance shall rot in hell. ;)
- - - - -

BK: I think [for "Kuraiyonrum"] the lyrics too hold that much importance...

Methinks there is much truth in this. Lyrics is an essential aspect of the enjoyment of a song. I am not sure if this amounts to "brainwashing"... In "Kuraiyonrum":

* The lyrics is in Tamil, which we all can understand. This is probably why the song is famous among Tamilians. When I played it for some Andhraites, they were quite cool to it.

* The song is a veiled expression of the poet's disappointment with the Lord (enraalum kuraiyonrum enakkillai) for not rewarding his bhakti. I think this pathos adds to the beauty of the song.

6:46 AM  
Blogger Girish said...

fresh doubt:

How wud the differences in impact be when kurai ondrum illai is sung to a foreigner and in another case, played on the violin say?

7:14 AM  
Blogger Vijay said...

J.harish, B.K, Srikanth

Totally accept the fact that lyrics are important for a song.

But the question here is just the music. So we need to take all the other influences like lyrics out of the picture.
(The 'knowledge' term I used refers to all other parameters other than music, including lyrics)

Probably the term 'brainwashed' is too strong a term. (I was mildly refering to the 'plain pleasure' theory - which basically says that the feelings we derive from our sensory perceptions may be controlled by our mind and hence in some sense the feeling are 'brainwashed')

J.harish, Srikanth
I am not saying no body will enjoy
the islamic songs or 'kurai ondrum illai'.
The fact that J.harish likes islamic music and some andhrite liked kurai ondrum illai has to do with parameters of each of the song...I mean, I am just saying those are like any other songs. (if you discount the knowledge - including lyrics)

Girish,
What you propose is a good method to just evaluate the music...I think.

10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vijayanand,
I got lost in the discussion. You are right, we leave out lyrics while considering the music.

Minor clarification: by "they were quite cool to it" I meant they did not receive the song very enthusiastically.

Doubt: the feelings we derive from our sensory perceptions may be controlled by our mind and hence in some sense the feeling are 'brainwashed'
Isn't this true for any music?

12:36 PM  
Blogger Vijay said...

Srikanth,

clarification:)

Doubt:
Yes it is true for all music. That is why when we are just talking about music, we need to remove all such 'knowledge' factors.

1:28 PM  
Blogger ranga said...

Reading so many views and counter-views...got lost totally..but defly had to counter J's view of Islam music.. infact coming to Zikhr..it 's a hymn very commonly sung by mothers to their kids ( read this in some Muslim guy's website..when Zikhr had absolutely bowled me over) and his comments were on the lines of a normal everyday Islamic hymn being transported to magical levels by the music of Rahman...I tried googling around for that site..but no luck now.....

anyway my point was the name..it's not Islamic songs that have the magic in them...A.R.R 's the reason.... extending this further..most of the devotional songs of any religion have this kinda feel to them...but ONLY if backed by amazing music or vocals....examples wud the Gregorian Chants so commonly heard in churches...AMAZINGly sung these songs..I infact loved them so much I downloaded quite a few mp3s..

anyway too long for a dead discussion...my sorries for butting in horribly late.....

7:16 PM  
Blogger Girish said...

pesardhu ellaam periya pudungi maadhiri pesittu aaL address-ae kaanum paaru indha BK kammanaati.. at least ippovaanum vandhiye nee..

enakku therinja sila "musicians" and music "lovers" irukkaanga... attendance kooda mark pannala....

11:12 PM  
Blogger Girish said...

Wat say junta?
should we agree to swetha's demands?

Of course, Ranga i aint askin u.

5:17 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Girish,
Thanks for linking to my article and for the kind compliments!

6:04 AM  
Blogger ranga said...

U ain't askin me....but me ambivalent here...no swearing is my policy..not something which I expect this blog to follow..so aap ki marzi ..;) even my aragora hindi has started featuring in blogs..that's gotta be the start of somethin special....

7:04 AM  
Blogger Girish said...

start of something special?
unnoda hindi-ya nee ipdi tharandhu vechutiyaa?

in other words hindi kul kar nee?

i get it.. u meant where it all started, the "special" watever ;)

(ennamo podaa girishaa..)

7:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ennamo poda Sabari - eppadi da unakku mattum intha Hindi ya yum Ranga va yum ippadi associate panna thonichchu...ennamo podaa...

9:25 AM  
Blogger Jay said...

Freedom of speech....Where art thou

1:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Freedom and liberty come with duty and responsibility...howzzat for an own goal...

podangooooooo

3:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thaa thaa-chanceless song da Sab,among the very best of any pallavi I ve ever heard-not 1 bit exaggeartion...kanla thanni varum nu sonnaa-ithu thaan da-thaa thaa.silirththu poiten (poren).0.28 - 0.36 - right right up there...huh...DIVINE MUSIC.PERIOD.

8:16 AM  
Blogger ranga said...

yennoda Hindi vijayathukku..lots of reaons..and the primaryone ain't the one u thinking of.....

5:29 PM  
Blogger Girish said...

naa ennikkaanum edhuliyaanum VIJAYA-m aanaa adhukku the primary reason, i wish, cud be wat u just thought of...
ah...
whattay!!

7:47 PM  
Blogger nandini said...

That was great... and you're right about the singability and singalongability I think... only I would probably disagree about the singability of Carnatic Music...That's a function of time too I think... and being melodious and wth less Techno involved... if you ask me they're quite singable.. .at least the simpler ones are...

7:54 AM  
Blogger Girish said...

Hmmm.. not sure i agree on that..
The very simple ones dont quite fall into the bracket strictly called carnatic music..
carnatic music, in its most quintessential form, is not very singable...
naamaavaLis and ashtapathis and kaavadi sindhus are pretty singable though...
Jus my 2 paise...

btw, do u happen to be a musician?singer?

9:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

aahaa - yaar ne theriyaama yaa daa ivlo neram kadala poatrukka...athu seri...

(Blog-owner - No hurt feelings if u go on to delete this comment :) )

Cheers

10:29 AM  

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